Navigating a data-led recovery

The pandemic has hit marketers hard. How can marketers make sure that they recover from this in a stronger position than ever before in 2021?


Benedict Buckland We'll kick off now. So welcome, everybody, to The CMO Show, the show where we ask some of the biggest questions in marketing to some of the leading lights within the industry. Now, today, I'm joined by Sam Tidswell-Norrish, who's the international CMO of Dun & Bradstreet, the data analytics company. Now, Sam, welcome.

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Thank you. Good to be here.

Benedict Buckland Great. Now, obviously, you and I have had the fortune, albeit virtually, of meeting, having a bit of conversation, understanding your background for those that were on the show today or in the audience, rather. It would be great if you could potentially spend maybe thirty to forty five seconds giving us a bit of an overview of who you are, your role in some of the background that you're bringing.

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Yeah, absolutely, Ben. Well, thank you for having me. It's not often that you get introduced as a "leading light". I don't think I'm there yet. I've got a relatively short background compared to some of the wonderful guests you've had on this show. I had an initial background in investment banking, which wasn't for me. I was probably the world's worst trader. And Barclays Capital kept me on for a while and then and then got rid of me. And I decided I wanted to do something more pioneering. When I left Barclays, it was to go and work for a financial technology company, a publicly listed one, and had the great fortune in parallel to doing that, to setting up the financial technology trade body with a group of people called Innovate Finance. That really gave me a huge interest in the opportunity to be impactful with one's career.

From there, helped set up a private equity firm called Motive Partners, where I'm one of the founding team. Then about a year and a half ago, in early February, 2019, an opportunity came along to participate in a consortium that took Dun & Bradstreet, one of the world's oldest and largest commercial data businesses, private.  I subsequently took a full time role there as the international Chief  Marketing Officer, ultimately helping build momentum and making this a more externally facing organisation rather than the sort of corporate internally facing organisation that had become over its two year history.

Benedict Buckland Fantastic. I didn't actually realise you had such a diversity of experience actually before joining Dun and Bradstreet. So it was marketing actually, with the intention for you, or is this something which you've, I suppose, fortuitously navigated to?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Yeah, it's a it's a great question. So I think the marketing component started probably during the monetise and finance days. But Motive Partners... we were building a new private equity firm. It's really about track record and how you show yourself and your strategy. It became very much for my role about marketing enormously about communications and about momentum and I think about momentum a lot today. I think it's a really important component, sitting behind a desk in an office, not having face time, contact time, whether it be virtual or real, is just not an option now for some offices and communications specialists. So, yeah, it started a while back, but in a less conventional form.

Benedict Buckland Great. I that's that's really interesting. I think that momentum will be a key thing, especially we're talking about this idea of bouncing back from from that. And I suppose actually just before we get into, I suppose, the detail and some of the meatier topics that we're going to talk about today, you spoke there about the importance of momentum. You spoke about being in the office and driving things forward and was really interested here at the moment. What is the return to work looking like for Dun & Bradstreet? Are you managing to maintain that momentum remotely or are you starting to see a return to the office? Sam Tidswell-Norrish  It's a really good question. And everyone I speak to has a different answer to it. It really comes down to, I think, subjectivity and how people and their employees are engaging about the topic. We've been highly communicative through the whole process. For me, it's I wouldn't be keen to get back to the office and time with friends and colleagues and clients, but I think it's going to be a relatively slow return this year. We'll start to make the offices available, I suspect, relatively soon. But it's really at the discretion of the employees and it's got to be that way. Yeah, but whatever people are comfortable with in these times.

Benedict Buckland I apologise probably with digressing slightly off topic there. Before we dive in, I just want to quickly just sort of remind everybody that is joining us, this is a live programme and we absolutely want it to be as interactive as possible. So throughout the course of this conversation, if there are any points which crop up, which you either want to find out a little bit more about, or indeed, there are other more general questions that you'd like to put to them. Please enter your questions in the question box. And then we were able to pick those up at the end. As I said, the focus of today's conversation is how companies, and specifically through their marketing departments, can bounce back from Covid.

Now to put this in sort of a context. And I'm sure that you've seen similar sort of press. There's a lot of conversation about the cuts that we're seeing within marketing this cost, the jobs, the slashing of budget. So the first question I want to ask you, because I'm aware that Dun & Bradstreet would have done a bit of research into this. Are you able to paint a picture of just how bad is the situation that marketers are facing at the moment as a result of the Covid crisis?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish It's it's a good question and it's really circumstantial. It's not the same for everyone. And you've got to bear that in mind, and please do, listeners. and watchers. I know it's different for everyone. There's many different firms out there going through many different experiences, some easier than others. For us, I don't think the situation is necessarily that bad. It's been very challenging. And I think broadly, marketers are having to re-evaluate their spend pivot plans and activities, and the obvious one is events, the webinars. But equally, there's been this renewed focus. If I think back to I started my career around the early stages of the financial crisis in 2008, and that was a moment where everyone felt the world was coming down and there were certain areas that thrived. I'll talk about some of those today on an industry level. The fintech industry thrived.

But on a professional level, the compliance executives thrive. There was a a renewed focus and need for them. And I think that renewed focus and need is going to exist for the marketing executives. Now, you mentioned the survey that we did recently, so we surveyed about, I think was about 210, maybe a few more CMOs and the senior marketers in the U.K. earlier in the year to see how the pandemic was was affecting them. And I think 79-80 per cent  of them said that budgets have been reduced, which is hardly surprising. And a similar number were indicating that they were reallocating that they spend to different marketing activities in response to the pandemic. But I think I spoke about the different shapes, types and sizes of businesses. I think for everyone it's about getting back to basics.

Now, what do I mean about that? We spent at the start of the pandemic, it was slightly old school, but we went into war mode and we got together in our own offices and homes and bedrooms and stuff around the UK. And we said, what is it that our customers need and are thinking about? And so we also serves three questions. What do our customers need most? How to communicate offerings to them most efficiently? And how can we get our products to them quickest? Now, some of those questions that we asked were very quick to solve the other what was the most? And that's really the difference between companies that are I think I on one of your your CMO shows from Refinitiv, said it very well. You're either an enabler or you're an extra. Unfortunately at Dun & Bradstreet the I feel very strongly that we're enablers. I talk about that a lot today. In terms of how to communicate our offering most efficiently.

That really came down to the nuts and bolts of marketing. How do we get the message out there and how can we help? When we did a ton of pro bono work with governments, central banks, clients, we've offered free products, anything to to help the community. Then how do we get our products to them quickest? I've seen some fascinating examples actually through the pandemic where some have done some amazing things. Well, thought about that channels one of the odds of a pandemic and some are now paying the price of not doing that. Yeah, we're starting to think about how we can evolve our channels and our distribution capabilities for the next ten years because of this incident. But a couple of good examples. I think there's a UK supermarket. I'm going to protect their identity. Who spent a lot of. Benedict Buckland I'm sure you could you could reference the colours and maybe we can work of that basis. But I won't push you into this. Sam Tidswell-Norrish This one's a good story. So it's Sainsbury's. I have some friends and senior management, that's when a lot of time thinking about their e-commerce capabilities their online capabilities. It used to account for eight percent of their shopping... sorry their revenues and now through the pandemic, it's accounting for 15 per cent. That's a significant shift. An example of a high street clothing, fast fashion brand that will remain nameless did absolutely zero for their fashion, especially affordable fashion.

You'll be disappointed because this the shop had zero online presence, nothing at all, and it went from six hundred and fifty million pounds of revenue a month to zero. Yeah. And so we're thinking about not just how do we move fast to create new distribution channels, but how do we create the fastest distribution channel so our clients can get products when they need them the most as possible.

Benedict Buckland Just very quickly, I want to pick up. I think the channels sort of thing is absolutely key, both in terms of recognising the opportunity and also being able to develop the infrastructure for that delivery, but actually trying to take it back a couple of steps. And when you you are outlining those, there's three sort of focus areas. You started by sort of understanding customer needs or client need, depending on what sector you raise. Now, something that I've become very aware of is that the reality is, is with this "new normal" and all of the change that's going on, a lot of businesses no longer understand their customer. And in actual fact, their customer now has a whole new set of priorities for the whole new set of stakeholders that they have to concern and the whole different sort of budget profile potentially as well. So uninterested, interested, both from done bad press perspective, but also more generally what do brands need... sorry what do marketing departments need to do to actually, I suppose, reconceptualise who their customer is in this time? What are the key steps that you think are important?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Well, this is exactly what we did when when I talked about the virtual war rooms, you know, we we went back to basics. We used our data to tell us about our customers. We have fortunately and we drink around champagne or whatever phrase you want to use products. We use products like Hubers, which is where basically every detail you could possibly want to know about the prospect universe. The optimiser, which sits in Salesforce that we use as well. So we looked at what our existing customers are doing and what they needed. Then we spent time looking at what the Prospect Universe was doing. That then allows you to inform your strategy much, much better. If you sit there thinking, you know what your clients want and your customers want. It's often that you're not going to pass the right test. So I think being data driven and data enabled is absolutely essential. This is going to be a big topic for conversation today because at D&B, it's everything we do. It's a, lifeblood.

Benedict Buckland Yeah, absolutely. I think the data... Clearly I think there is more than a developing understanding of the importance of data. I Think that understanding is arguably here. But just very quickly, before we get into that data side of things. I'm just interested when you went through that process of looking at what data was telling you about those changing needs of the customer. Was there anything that really surprised you? Were there any preconceptions that existed within the business when it came to customers that actually were completely undermined when you looked at the data and you had that more sophisticated understanding?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Yeah, I think it's a really good question. You have to think about at any given moment in time, what is it that's that's important to the customer? And so, yeah, a large part of what we did was look at the products that we have today, think about which ones are relevant in the macro environment, the zeitgeist, and some of them are very relevant. We have products that help mitigate risk. We have products that help customers with their credit rating to borrow more. That's a really, really necessary product. We have then other products that might be less relevant at that moment in time, but more useful further down the line.

I think then matching your product set to where their customer is in their own journey is it's a difficult thing to do well, and you often don't see people doing it well enough. The second part to that was making sure that once we identified what our customers really wanted from us as a brand and as a partner was making sure we came to market fast enough. And we've seen some amazing stuff through to the pandemic of organisations understanding what their customers need and really reacting to it extremely fast.

One of my favourite ones is one of our partners, Unilever, who had a whole load of hygiene products ready to go later on in the year. And in China, they managed to bring to market in a matter of days because obviously then you have matched the customer needs. So identifying what your customers want and then finding the way to get it to them as quickly as possible is is is really at the crux of it.

Benedict Buckland The other thing I'm interested in is you spoke earlier around how brands need to pivot their activity and reallocate budgets to other things, that the obvious thing is that there wasn't really a justification for keeping an event budget, for instance. So therefore, I'm sure that a lot of market departments were able to reallocate that between equally. I'm sure that a lot of marketing departments just had the budget slashed completely and they didn't have the opportunity to reallocate it. From your perspective, what were those key market activities that you pivoted and how did you build the case to the business to maintain that budget rather than just cutting it that now?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish That really is a superb question. So this in any organisation is always a bit of a them and us, often historically with with marketing. And it's Dun and Bradstreet marketing is right at the centre of the organisation, which is a wonderful thing. And we have great connectivity and relationships with our colleagues, really straddling product and sales and a number of the operational functions. So the conversation for us was pretty easy. The sales teams relied on marketing. The survey we just did said that over 75 per cent of respondents wanted the marketing activities to become more front and centre, and we're actually relying on them.

So for us, it was really a case of reviewing where we had spend that wasn't going to be utilised - events as the perfect example - and then how can we reallocate that? It might be a reallocation across paid media. It might be a reallocation into a new virtual capabilities like webinars or new content production.  But a large part of where some of our energy was spent and it comes back to that word "momentum". Was around thinking about the next generation of marketers, and the next generation of marketer doesn't need to be confined by what people tell the marketing is for. For... and this is only a personal opinion, but for's marketing's intersection with business development is essential. Using that data to drive intimacy and ultimately lead generation to help the sales teams do the best they can possibly do is critical. One of the really core components of that, and particularly in a pandemic or in a time like this, is looking to other firms around you and seeing what you can do together.

We've spent a lot of time and we're investing in it heavily and looking at our partnership strategy. That's something I firmly believe that marketing should have led on. We've we've had to divert our focus from one area. So, core events. Now, we need to think about other areas to to continue to grow. partnerships is a great way to do that. Can we come innovate together? Can we share our distribution channels and can we actually end up delivering greater products to our clients, together? You're going to see some stuff in the coming weeks from from Dun & Bradstreet. This is pretty cool on that front.

Benedict Buckland Great. Yeah, I think it's it's always a it's an old topic of conversation. I still think it's a relevant one. Is that ability for marketing to properly communicate the value of marketing to the business. You spoke about the advantageous position, I suppose, where you do have that integration between marketing the business and specifically marketing and business development. Do generally in terms of when you speak to peers outside of Dun & Bradstreet. Do you think the marketers aren't good enough at making the case for marketing, and have been good enough at making the case for marketing in the context of this pandemic? If you think there's still a lot of work to go on that front?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish It's everyone who's tuned into this is going to be thinking the same thing, which is it's often really hard to explain why we're doing stuff. You have to be ROI driven, you have to be able to show that return on investment. Now at D&B, we have a very mature marketing function and we have very developed marketing operations capabilities. We can manage and measure all of our lead generation and pipeline to pretty precision accuracy, but with diminished resources, it's going to be harder to do. I think there's an increased scrutiny on it to ensure that all of our marketing strategies ultimately deliver that tangible return on investment. It's a difficult thing to do. Sometimes a lot of people think it's finger in the air stuff, but it doesn't need to be. Marketing technology is such an important part of what we do day to day. I can't remember what it's called now. The Marketing Supergraphic that Scott Brinkley brings out every year, and it's been going for about ten years. It's an infographic of all the marketing technology companies on the planet.

Benedict Buckland I've seen it.

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Yes, it comes out once a year. I love it because every year it gets more ridiculous. We can't say always because it's so big. But in 2011, there were 150 marketing technology companies in the world. In 2020 there were over 8000, and one in five of them were new. Those tools that are available there to help with exactly this kind of stuff, how do you insert technology into your internal value chain to help you do your job better? It can't be done manually anymore, but I'm always blown away by how often these tools aren't used. The D&B, and I won't talk about now, but then maybe a chance a bit further down the line, at the D&B we took this so seriously that one of the tools that we were using, we ended up buying because it was so good and we wanted our clients to have it as well. So, yeah, I think technology and data ultimately to help with the ROI case is again, but you have to adopt a different mindset.

Benedict Buckland Yeah, absolutely. I think obviously I'll be interested to hear from your experience as well. But anecdotally, I'm certainly hearing that in the context of the cuts that we were talking about earlier, there's increased business pressure for immediate results. And a lot of that is sort of manifesting in the demand for lead generation activities. Is that what you're seeing in terms of how marketers are putting that budget? Is there a greater emphasis on lead generation at the moment? And then the sort of second part of that question is if everyone is doing it from your perspective, what does that look like when it comes to lead generation where companies let themselves down and who's doing it really, really well?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Well, yeah, it's such a good question. Lead generation is a large part of what we do in our marketing function. It's a difficult thing to to do well, I think and to stand out from the crowd. A lot of people, a lot of organisations deploy relatively vanilla tactics. I spent a lot of time talking to friends in the industry, CMOs in different organisations, because I think there's a huge amount to share. If you're watching this in your in marketing or you're a CMO, there's tons of great forums where I go and speak to people and share this stuff. I usually do that over a glass wine, but lately there's been a little bit one way.

I had a great conversation the other day. It was actually on a webinar with some people and there were some CMOs from well-known organisations talking about lead gen. One of them was from Revolut. We have a laser focus on providing customer value and they went and spent a lot of time looking at the data. And the data, told them exactly what their customers were using, what the customers wanted and how to talk to their customer, ultimately.

The data told them that their customers were most likely to spend time with looking at stuff that Revolut wanted to push on them on a Sunday evening. So Revolut now spend the time rather than on paid ads on focusing on the customer and the value that they're bringing them and getting that message to them at the right time. Sterling, another one of the UK challenger banks, has adopted an influencer the strategy. That's not something I even thought about doing at D&B. They mentioned it and I suddenly thought, wow, that's actually quite a cool idea. If I had, and let me throw a random example, but our business in India that helps a large number of SMBs and SMEs... Would having a member of the England cricket team who's a friend of mine do some promotional activity as an influence to help the business out there? The British cricket team, yeah, maybe.

So those kind of lead gen ideas, you don't you don't just think of them overnight. I love sharing them, but it's really, really important. I think it's important with lead gen not to just have the idea, but to put the idea into practise, to measure it, to look at where it's performing through the phases and where it drops off to iterate, perfect, amend and keep that feedback loop nice and short. So you can always perfect it and make sure you're improving every time. Then ultimately back to the ROI, you can show the positive change.

Benedict Buckland I also like the idea about being a bit more experimental with how people approach it rather than the traditional way, shall we say. 

Sam Tidswell-Norrish No, no one can get cross with you for trying something and failing. I would love to hire someone talented and for them to be scared to try stuff. And I'd always rather someone apologises for something that they haven't done something terrible and then not. But you have to be a bit experimental and there's a big responsibility when when you're working in an organisation that has 180 year old brand. It's an amazing brand and you have to be true to that brand. But that doesn't mean you can't try new things. In fact, I think to the contrary, you have to try and you think, yeah, yeah, you can, I hope, expect some cool stuff in the future.

Benedict Buckland Perfect. Now, got one final question that I really just do want to ask you, and I'm going to turn over to some of the questions that have come through. We obviously we've touched upon data a number of times. As I say, there is clearly, in an abstract sense anyway, an understanding of the importance of data. But I do think that there is there is often a little bit of buzzwords that go around when it comes to data. There isn't necessarily a lot of marketers minds, and I would count myself in this number, the precision in terms of what data should I be looking at, what I should should I be just putting to one side? So I'm really interested from your perspective and your bread and butter clearly is data. But as a marketer, where should they be focusing their attention when it comes to data? And actually what is just noise that they should just be putting to one side?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Yeah, I mean, the million dollar question, I think we recorded a podcast last Friday with the chairman of Microsoft, John Thompson. It comes out in a couple of weeks and you'll hear this from him. But he said, we believe a Microsoft every company is a technology company. And our response to that was we believe every company is a data company. And that's because every company should be looking internally at their own data from the CRM data through to the marketing automation to data through to just the product usage and client data, and then look externally and use data to prospects and segment and ultimately for their campaigns. D&B does all of this stuff so, we're spoilt for choice. Every day I wake up and I know that we can use our tools both internally and externally to grow the business. That's that's a really privileged position. But I mentioned earlier that we bought a company we loved and I'll spare you the the name of it and the marketing on this channel.

But I want to tell you a little bit about what it does, because this is a perfect example of capturing everything in one fell swoop. It's a customer data platform, which are sophisticated pieces of kit. If you if you find a good one. The first phase of any customer data platform is connecting all your data from all those different areas. Raconteur, I'm sure you're going to have data and a CRM system and your marketing automation tools, web visitors, your purchase data. I mean, this could be everywhere in anywhere third Third-Party data you might want to use. Connecting all of that stuff is difficult and you do need something sophisticated, and that's what the best CDPs out there do. It helps you source it agnostically and then load that data into the CDP. That data is then matched in ours with a wealth of thermographic information. So where's the company? What does it do? Who are the people, etc.? All sorts of techno graphic attributes and the signals. I mean, it's hyper complex and it brings it all together so that you have that data at your fingertips. But once you have that data at your fingertips, you have to be smart with it. It's about there's loads of data out there, but how do you actually use it and create those insights? So the second phase is the segmentation phase where we prioritise and we use our custom-built predictive models to ultimately have hyper targeted groups that we can then select target and then the third phase is activated.

So we activate through all these different omnichannel campaigns with a tailored messaging via the right medium at the right time for that customer. And so we can know that if Customer X is on a renewal cycle of why we can target them with exactly what the customer wants when it needs it. We can do that on an Always-On basis so that when I'm sleeping, I know that our CDP is working. And that's how I think a company and it really doesn't matter what size you are, we have relatively small customers that are using the CDP. That's how you can ensure that you are a data driven company, both internally and externally.

Benedict Buckland Well, it seems to me that the the big bet, if market is going to make on recruitment in twenty, twenty one is possibly a data scientist if you're really going to get maximum value out of that data. And I just want to quickly tell myself, I know of one or two minutes over, but we shall extend it, given the technical issues that we had in the middle. We've got a question here from Diana Potter. What advice would you give to marketers trying to maintain the front and centre role that they were thrown into during the pandemic? I think it's really interesting. She feels like the attitudes changed very quickly, but they seem to be slowly returning to the way that they used to be. I think this relates back to what we were talking about in terms of the prominence of marketing and marketing role within within the business. So how can marketers remain front and centre?

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Yeah, it's a really good question and it's a privilege that we've been put in this position. Ultimately, I think one of the things I would recommend, and I use this phrase with my colleagues all the time, is be ready to do the kind of "white glove service", be ready to serve your stakeholders, be as consultative as possible, speak to the product team, speak to the sales team, speak to the teams, speak to the leadership teams. Make sure that you're constantly asking for feedback on how they think things are performing. So that's the first approach.

It should be more consultative today than ever before. The second approach, which I alluded to earlier, is take on big projects that people might not attribute to the old marketing, but they will attribute to the new marketing. For me, that's really around marketing momentum and think about new ways to create new leads. One of the things I mentioned earlier was a global partnership programme. How can we partner with other firms to benefit from their distribution channels and then benefit from our distribution channels? That's, I personally believe, going to be a game changer for for Dun & Bradstreet. It's already a game changer for some of the world's largest technology companies. So think about ways that you can take all of your marketing knowledge, the fact that you understand what customers want, the you understand how to communicate, distribute, iterate, measure, and then use that in projects that take you out of your comfort zone, because I'm absolutely certain the marketing role is evolving every day, and the marketer, the future marketer, is going to be one of the things with a momentum mindset.

Benedict Buckland That's great, that's great. We're going to finish it. It's a pretty big question Giuseppi has asked here. I need to let you put your economist hat on here. Now there's a lot of talk about the shape of the economic recovery, the you w l shape. I mean I think that the list could go on. And so if you're interested, what recovery shape are you planning for? Yeah, I mean, that was a big question, and I know you had a diverse background, but we are introducing economics to this.

Sam Tidswell-Norrish I told you I was a terrible trader. It's a good question. I can answer that in a number of different guises. And you may have to read between the lines a little bit. But Dun & Bradstreet was in a very privileged position at the start of the pandemic, having gone through previous recessions where we knew that there's a degree of stability for our organisation because we help people in these situations and people need the products that we have and the data. The world that we are in today, we've been forced into this digital singularity. And that's a pretentious way of saying everything's gone digital. I mean, even in this industry where they couldn't spend five minutes not being in the market to having everyone on trading floors empty, everything is digital. Even government processes that have been done through manual paper oriented processes have now gone digital.

That's great for organisations like Dun & Bradstreet to the point where we actually relisted recently on the New York Stock Exchange on the 1st of July. That in itself was a it was an interesting process to go through during a time like this. But the reason we did it was because we wanted to double down on what we really feel. Our responsibility is our responsibility to help the companies that we call our clients and we're proud to call our clients. And so I think, you know, I can't say too much as a public company, but I think for Dun & Bradstreet, the opportunity is enormous. We're a 178 year old, maybe 79 soon, but 178 year old data business whose time has finally come. The world realises in this world of digital singularity that data is one of the most essential parts for any role in the organisation, and it's one of the most essential parts for our future organisation. So I'm hoping it's less value and it's kind of just more constant. We don't want any of that hockey stick stuff either. It's just constant growth and economic recovery, I think. I think Dun & Bradstreet is well positioned to help firms capitalise on that.

Benedict Buckland Excellent. Well, I think that was very diplomatically sidestepped in terms of actually a sort of economic forecast, but which I applaud you for. But it was very interesting to hear about, I suppose, how you you guys are positioned and also the confidence, I think, that you have as a result of the data which is underpinning your business and to ride this out successfully. So that's all we've got time for. So firstly, thank you so much for your time. That was extremely interesting conversation. I think certainly for me, one of the overriding sort of messages coming through is now data has a lot of value, but actually data has the potential to really empower marketers.

By empowering marketers, marketers could not only be better represent business, but they can get overall better outcomes for their business and the business can be more nimble and responsive to the challenges that are being faced. So it was a delight. Thank you very, very much for joining me today on this show. So we've got time for today. Thank you very much for everybody's questions. I can see there's a question about the recording. A recording will be made available of this so you can access it afterwards. Thank you very much and goodbye.

Sam Tidswell-Norrish Thank you.

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